Somethings pretty strange here. She figured in some bumper stickers also. The Clinton stimulus plan just was not well conceived. In other words a handful of conservative Democrats whose votes we had to have because we had no Republican votes. Kerrey made a quite dramatic speech, rather excoriating Clinton, urged Clinton to get back on the high road and so forth and then cast the vote and Gore cast the tie-breaking vote and thats how it happened. As has been, as I said, so widely chronicled, the focus was on the economy because the economy was sluggish, in a recessionary state. So a group of us at the deputy level, Joan Spero, Charlene Barshefsky, Bo Cutter, me, who were the four senior members of that group, started entering into discussions with our Japanese counterparts. I can remember very well when Breaux and Boren offered Clinton that compromise, and Bentsen said, You should take it. Was there anything that particularly distinguished this campaign from what youd seen in these other instances thats noteworthy? There was. But he was at least alive. You had some experience with Japan before? For example, a year later, the fall following my graduation, I attended the University of Chicago, which was perhaps more than any other university, except the University of Wisconsin, the center of SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] activity. But you think that by January 20th, this basic division of the fundamental economic policy. So, for example, the partisanship in Washington hasnt particularly declined since President Clinton left office. Then later in the process I was asked if I would go do a war room for healthcare of the type we did for the budget. People forget that, even today. They werent just opponents, they were angry and intense opponents and vitriolic opponents. I wasnt directly negotiating them. Was there a representative of the campaign. Actually the bigger debate was over what came after NAFTA, welfare reform or healthcare. We came up with a Btu [British thermal unit] tax. So were interested in hearing about. When we then proceeded on NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], which was the next very dramatic moment. Bentsen knew Clinton wouldnt get anything else if he didnt. He just determined each time that what he had to do was get through this chapter and somehow live to fight for the next one and didnt take the longer view. Nothing, zero, never did, never would have. He was on a roof, about an 8-foot-high roof. Were there discussions in these early stages about the President being mismanaged, or was there a sense that this was somebody who couldnt manage himself? But its interesting to put it into perspective. There was a whole bunch of work going on on that but I was completely preoccupied with the Presidents economic program and trying to get it passed, not just during the war room period but before that. Did you have a sense on the Japanese policy that we actually had a policy or that we had something that was in lieu of policy? Dont ever let those conversations be public. I think John Kennedys famous line about Jefferson applies because he had nine simultaneous careers, and the Presidency was only one. Its really a bad thing to say to a senior Cabinet officer, Well, your deputy isWe dont want to get off on that, but thats a very bad approach. Oh sure. You sit down with the leaders of your own party in the Congress, ultimately with the entire leadership, and then you learn a little bit about the realities that you face from the legislative point of view. Why does the government want to take over the healthcare system? I think its a combination of several things. Now youre raising a subject that is an entirely different one, which is why was this so partisan and why were the Clinton years so partisan? Some of thats a function of, for lack of a better word, the culture within the group of people who worked in this administration, so that there is no penalty paid, in effect, among your former colleagues for being outspoken or saying something in the press critical to the President. Bentsen only talked to about five or six Senators. Before the grand jury before Starr, and how was that experience? I recall speaking about 20 minutes before the vote to Marjorie MargoliesMezvinsky,with whom I had developed a friendship, and it became evident to me that she was very reluctant but willing to vote for the bill. The reason it didnt succeed a lot more than that is because its really macro factors that drive this. It was Clintons first, if I recall correctly, major international summit. Roger Altman is Founder and Senior Chairman of Evercore, the most active independent investment bank in the world today. Yes, Putting People First was reissued, I believe it was June. Im not in the Senate. I can recall David Halberstam on the way out saying to me that he never heard a politician as effective as Clinton since JFK [John Fitzgerald Kennedy]. I didnt. But I worked on a lot of members of Congress, I enjoyed that, I just did. Clinton was offered a compromise by Senators [John] Breaux and [David] Boren. So I said, Well then, thats the course Im going to take. Thats the way to do it. I was the class of 1967 and he was the class of 1968. The ultimate plan was way too complicated for the Congress and the country to grasp and understand and soberly assess. I worked in the White House another three or four months, worked on, for example, the bailout of Washington, D.C., and then the passage of the new control board type legislation and then my kids got out of school in June. Ive been struck on several occasions in response to questions, youve referred to historical patterns and trends. There was a lot of effort and a lot of meetings. Of course, during earlier phase of this, Bernie Nussbaum had resigned, mostly over the fact that he met with me on this original matter. Do you recall in your conversations with Senator Bentsen, were there missed opportunities for developing a more bipartisan atmosphere in Washington at this time, or was it pretty much just a foregone conclusion that because the Republicans were now completely in the minority that they were going to obstruct from the outset? My testimony was rather a highlight of that. But I mean, when you were sitting in the Roosevelt Room, where most of those meetings took place, all of the players were there. The politics of personal destruction as Mrs. Clinton is saying now on her book tour, common in American history, nothing new about it at all. And I dont have any different set of reactions than anyone else watching the thing at the time. No I dont. The election occurred and about a week later Reagan was getting a haircut in California and he came out of the barbershop. I might have a point of view about what those ought to be based on certain inputs I was receiving directly from the Hill and we need to work more on this or that. So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. A fairly major effort went into that, which I was part of. Thats not particularly my recollection, no. Youre working on prospective personnel issues? But in any event, what gets discussed most in the campaign historically may or may not be the first or second major initiative that comes from the new President. He has his own views in private, of course. I dont know about developing the convention. They were done among the United States, Mexico, and the Congressional parties involved. Sure, sure. Hed been in office a month or two, defeated by a coalition of Republicans and conservative Democrats, and that was many months before the fateful votes on the economic plan. Carter had his famous Pond House meetings, and I went to a couple of those. As I recall, the distinctive thing about Clinton, if everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade. The following MondayI was out West actuallyI flew back to Washington and I believe I resigned on Wednesday. Well, if you were to ask me for a moment when looking back on it, one could perhaps see that we were moving into a new period of partisanship, I would have chosen instead the [Robert] Bork battle, which I think changed quite dramatically the whole process on Supreme Court nominations and the grounds on which they were debated. Because if you decided not to go on NAFTA you really couldnt ever go back and say, Im a pro-trade President. He had a certain way of carrying himself and a certain sense of very carefully managing his own stature. Although the Whitewater event came well before Lewinsky, it came very early. So Ira was, to some degree, as youve read thousands of times, off in the corner doing this whole plan. Senior Management, U.S. Investment Banking and Evercore ISI businesses are conducted through Evercore Group L.L.C., a member of. We might have a thousand independent counsels operating under the freedom of the press, investigations. In 1991 it was not organized. But apropos of my comments earlier that classic, unreconstructed liberalism had never been my cup of tea, I never identified with Mario Cuomo. Mr. Altman returned to Washington in 1993 to serve as Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for two years. We had wonderful cooperation, at least in the Treasury. Not surprising, given his state of origin. He loved it. I do believe it was able to make a difference. Okay, the election occurred and, for reasons Ive never fully understood, Alice Rivlin and I were the first two to go down to see Clinton, of those he was looking at for appointment purposes. Sure, I did. So I knew a little bit about what was worth doing and what wasnt. He knew the rhythm, so to speak, of the Democratic Party, including in New York. I was the natural person to do that, having served in it before. So monetary policy has gone from being considerably more powerful than fiscal policy in 93, to being the only policy in town in 2003. Those are two different questions, Id rather answer the will be question. Bentsen also wanted the resignation of the Treasury General Counsel, who resigned too. I dont think I would have known otherwise. We didnt have a crisis in the foreign exchange markets. I have to confess it was the spring of my senior year and I was paying a little more attention to girls and golf than I was to the normal ebb and flow of events on the campus. He was quite an unknown in New York, wasnt he, until he came, appeared, and talked? For example, the Btu tax and the raising of the highest rate, highest bracket. The meetings became sort of a phenomenon and some people thought they were great because they were so inclusive and here we were having opportunities to spend hours with the President. Had there always been a sense on your part that your likely posting in the administration would be in Treasury or. I recall reading in one account that Clinton had worked on a kind of unusual cluster of issues as a candidate for student body president at the time. But the key revelation was the most stimulative thing we could do for this economy is to induce a monetary response. But I really could never figure that out. We came into office, the trade imbalance of payments deficit with Japan had risen to very high levels. That was just an amazing experience. I just didnt; it wasnt my style. But there was the issue of the Clintons association with it and the fact that Madison Guaranty had made loans to the actual Whitewater Development Company, and the question of whether those loans had been made under pressure from the Clintons and in fact whether [James] McDougal, who ran it, had defrauded the depositors in cahoots with the Clintons. That is foolish because history provides lessons on these matters. What specifically arose was that the statute of limitations on any prosecution involving the failure of an S and L was about to expire. Speaking out of school? So I guess wed like to hear the story about your involvement in both cases, focusing on your relationships with members of Congress, how the division of labor was, your relationships with the. In some measure. But, in any event, the presentations were very effective and that was, I think, the most important single day in the evolution of that original policy. Im not sure anyone is ever going to pay a penalty in American society for that type of commentary. What external factors were at work here? Sure, Greenspan was in favor of deficit reduction, so when the administration came forward with an actual deficit reduction plan, which, as we all know, was a bit unexpected, Greenspan supported it, testified for it and so forth. And I also think that theres a certain sense of loyalty among the people that are currently serving in this administration, which is more in keeping with tradition, than the Clinton folks, or many of them I should say, brought to it. I would say it was something like this. There was concern that we had already spilled an enormous amount of blood on the economic plan. First of all, the actual role of the Deputy Secretary as defined in the Treasury mission statement is to do what the Secretary of the Treasury asks him to. Ill never forget, it was just a few days after the election and Carter, of course, had been beset by the Iranian hostage crisis and the failure of Desert One and so forth, the rescue effort. Clintons very first initiative was his stimulus program. You said earlier you were involved raising some money, but also providing some advice and guidance on economic policy. His Presidency itself I think was a very strong one, but it doesnt make it into the top five or six. Everyone understood there was a lag factor. But it was a rather fluid, floating group. I recall a large event, right after New Years, the fourth of January I believe, in 92, that I organized at their request, which was just simply to have a large number of people listen to Clinton give a speech. Then there was the other dynamic, which istheir personalities could not have been more different. You become President, theres a new Congress. Its improved a lot since then, now become of course one of the leading universities in the country, but it was not at that time, in fairness. It was hard to make any progress at all because the Japanese really didnt want to agree to any of this. Youre referring to the environmental and labor side issues. He knew what the House would do. Then Clinton, as I mentioned, this one big event in January of 92Clinton was great on his feet. If Whitewater occurred today or there was some like set of issues surrounding President Bush and his past, I dont think thered be a single hearing about it. So those two circumstances are important as a starting point, the second one especially, because wed been assuming a certain deficit problem, and upon fresh review, it turned out to be much worse. I was completelyclean bill of health from the independent counsel. Were you consulting with the President occasionally after you left Washington and came back to New York? It was a priceless education in the way the Congress and all the surrounding politics really worked. But with regard to deficit reduction. Oh sure, sure, well have another major Presidential uproar. To this day, I have a much closer relationship with her than I do with him. In fact, Bernard and his late partner, George Katz, were both involved. This had been the thrust of the campaign, so expectations were very high that Clinton would come forward with a real economic program, a comprehensive program, and from the moment that all these folks were chosen the question was, what is that program going to be? So it quickly became apparent that some elements of the plan were going to face heavy sledding. I went also for the election. So what I actually spent my time on ranged all over the lot. Hed been the Governor of New York for quite some time and everyone knew Cuomo and his coterie. Its very puzzling to me how that could happen when the man had such an obvious gift for feeling peoples pain and a very strong public presence. Concessions involving individual members of Congress could often be done at a lower level, depending on the magnitude of the concession. But the presumption was that the head of the agency of course did know that. Malibu, California (CA), US. And, of course, the ATF agents didnt know what they were going to experience and he found himself exposed to an open line of fire. There is a It traces to Clintons legendary wonkishness. Is this time for horse-trading? I mean, Im raising some money now for one of the other candidates and the degree of difficulty today as compared to at the same point 91 wasnt any greater. It was a voluntary choice. I mean I hired really good lawyers, and they told me pretty early in the process that on the substance there was no issue, that you have to worry about the fact that in this country prosecutions can become very political, but they just didnt think that it was much of an issue on the legal precedence and the substance. Id actually done that precise role before, in 1976, obviously at a much different age, but I was put in charge of the Treasury transition at that time. Secretary Bentsen took a lot of heat not long after being sworn in saying hed like to see a stronger yen, and that touched off a lot of controversy. Of course. Or was it just that you were persuaded that he was going to be a great candidate? Actually it was mundane. Let me give you an example that is appropriate to the present. Lloyd Bentsen was the very first person we tried when this whole project started, on the urging also of Clintons people because of his age, and they didnt know at that time that he was as ill as he was. I dont know how many people would have the political courage to do that, but I know I wouldnt have. He said, I know this will be hard, but I think I can get those folks. I have no evidence, and I think I would have had, that he went into that meeting with the expectation that hed come out the way he did. But my first point is that that entire team was out there promoting the Presidents economic package, both crisscrossing the country for that purpose, speaking, visiting Congressional districts and so forth, testifying on it of course, visiting one-on-one with members of Congress. In addition, Mr. Altman is a director of New Visions for Public Schools and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Before we close, Id like to make one pitch though. Was the center of gravity in the White House, with you, or was it none? Some of them, yes. I know this will sound quite strange, but Clinton was in some awe of Bentsen and a little bit of fear of Bentsen. Those things were at a peak in 94, just at the time healthcare was on the table. Japan accepted a series of goals that we wanted them to accept, but the teeth, in terms of enforcement, werent there. You know, you call in for five minutes apiece and theyre all lined up. Carter had chosen, as you remember, to somehow find a diplomatic solution to that crisis. Whether his actual conversation with Dick Morris about the Lewinsky matter is true or not, would the American people accept an apology? I cant recall my own platform, and as a result I really cant recall his. At this point youre working on policy questions primarily? Could you see at that point a set of priorities emerging with the candidate? I did. Did you think it was a waste of time at that point? In fact, it was six months before. Ive read a lot of whats been written about the healthcare plan, its all there. Exactly. I also told him, which was quite a mistake, that I was thinking about recusing myself from the case because I realized that there was such a conflict here between being a member of the administration on one hand and being a Federal regulator on the other. I was on the board of the Childrens Television Workshop, now called the Sesame Workshop, the entity that produces Sesame Street and related childrens programming. No, I was responding to a question about economic policy. So I didnt take him seriously except as in a sort of inner political context. Wasnt that a state-chartered institution? He wouldnt call the others back; hed have me do that because when youre Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and some freshman Senator called you, you didnt tend to talk to him. He knew every comma and apostrophe in the bill. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. When you were suggesting Edmund Morris I was thinking. I think Clinton authentically saw healthcare as more important, believed it was a bigger national problem, and thought he was tackling the bigger of the two. My role was also shaped by the fact that Bentsen picked his spots very carefully and not only didnt want to be involved in everything, only wanted to be involved in a very few things. Its the biggest story in Washington, Hillary Clinton, the whole thing. Its worth asking. Clinton gave his State of the Union address, the 28th of January, eight days after being inaugurated. Here we are in June 2003 and the election as we all know is November 04, so its 16 months or so before the election, 17 months, and right now of course, the campaign among the Democratic aspirants for the nomination is hot, full-bore, and has been for several months. Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. In retrospect, the idea that he finished second is seen that he had triumphed. Fourth, I recall that the economic forecasts for 93 were not very heartening. I mean, theyre all just issuing healthcare plans right now and there are some important differences among them, but 99 percent of the primary voters will not know those differences. I dont question the sincerity of every opponent. Clinton, as we all know, is very open, but also a very undisciplined guy. I didnt feel it because I had a long relationship with Bob Rubin, which had been ten or 12 or 14 years, and Bentsen and Rubin had had their own long relationship and I saw no real problem with everybody relating successfully to each other. Now streaming on: Powered by Tulip Brenner (Carol Burnett) tells off her sister-in-law (Peggy Ann Garner) in Robert Altman's "A Wedding." If I search my memory or some dusty file somewhere, I could probably come up with more names, but it was not a huge group. And, to some degree it was also, of course, for Clinton to take the measure of certain people he might be appointing. I thought maybe we should step back and let you give us a more organized picture of what it is that you were doing with respect to U.S.-Japanese relations. I think though, if I can repeat myself once, I finished reading a few months ago a marvelous biography of TR [Theodore Roosevelt], the second volume of Edmund Morris work. Well, I recall particularly how weak the field was. And presided over eight years of peace. And Bentsen, who full knew this was going to be on the front page of the Wall Street Journal said, Im not in the Senate. He didnt, but he thought he could. No, but it wasnt just entirely that. I thought, perhaps not at that instant, but quickly thereafter, that what Clinton said to me about Wall Street economics was very funny. Of course Mack McLarty was there and all theif I can call them factionswere represented. I wasnt there because I was an expert in tax policy. You didnt have to spend much time around them to see this. A lot of people didnt realize and I didnt entirely realize the regulatory responsibilities of the RTC at the time. This was breaking news, CNN [Cable News Network] was interrupting its programming and so forth and President Clinton said, What is this about? And the field against which Clinton ultimately competed was not a strong field. Im not an economist, so maybe Im making a bad assumption here, but was there a discussion at this time about when you could start feeling some benefits from this pain that you were asking the President to accept at a fairly early stage in his Presidency? Can you walk us through that? I mean, there are libraries full of books that have already been written about that. It used to be, I believe, that they were graded on grounds of competent scholarship and so forth. It was very stirring. Some people thought they were misguided. The only thing that Id like to leave this on in respect to any follow-up is this: If at any point you dont think you have a clear picture of Lloyd Bentsens role, since he is not in a position to speak for himself, feel free to call me or talk to me further about that. Sure. But I think if you study American history and you look at any number of earlier periods, the attacks on Abraham Lincoln for example comes to mind, the Andrew Jackson period, such extreme partisanship is common in American history. We just didnt know, and thats pretty amazing, the biggest piece of legislation, the voting has actually begun. That was a wonderful comment. I think Clinton will come out pretty well. I wasnt making a distinction between Clinton and his predecessors, but rather making a distinction between Clinton and his successors since there wont be any more. We wanted Japan to commit to rebalance the current account between the two countries, including committing itself to some pro-growth steps at home, and we wanted a specific agreement on autos and certain other things. I think each person makes his or her own decision. Ive seen it happen so often in business as well as in government. So the question naturally arises, was it his economics? Hes chancellor of the Board of Education of New York, hes a good friend of mine, and I had dinner with him about a month ago and I said, Does it make any difference who the President is as far as youre concerned? Roger C. Altman. We didnt spend a tremendous amount of time talking about, If we do this, Greenspan will do that. Was this a group of people that you primarily put together, or is it bits and pieces of people that the Clintons had known. So those ideas were developed during the campaign. Ill give you an answer but Ill preface it by saying Im not sure my memory is quite right here. First of all, one has to put it into broad context, including that a number of the more established would-be candidates, if I can put it that way, chose not to run, led by Cuomo, but there were others. He could have been all rhetorical about it. Stay as long as you can figure out how to cling to it. I dont include that on the list because the federal role in education is always exaggerated. Bentsen had a lucidits hard to describe how lucid Bentsens observations always were. Then we ended up for some strange set of reasons having a giant turnout and he wowed them. It wasnt any of those. Thats a very important difference, because it addressed healthcare, various items on childrens policy, crime initiatives, urban policythe full span of domestic policy issues, of which economic policy was just one element. But I was briefed on the procedures the RTC had to follow here. So I watched the Senate vote, also on television, this time in the war room. Im thinking of what historians will say. They were taking, to some degree, a thousand-year view. But I dont really think that was the reason that he voted for it, but only an hour before the vote in the Senate did we know we had his vote. They all came to the same conclusions. So two points: one, I support what the President did and I think he deserves a lot of credit for it. So there are the four main elements. Within a month, I remember vividly one day, I had seven radio shows. Yes, actually there was a big debate about healthcare, welfare reform, and NAFTA. Yes, he did. The film director, known for making films that are highly naturalistic, but with a stylized Unfortunately, during the Clinton era ultimately there were four, five, or six independent counsels chosen to look into Bruce Babbitt and Ron Brown and some of the other people. That approach hasnt been able to capture a majority of the American public for 40 years and I dont think its going to capture the majority of the American public for another 40 years. But a very useful one. We had a chat; we had a nice time. Ultimately they were in effect combined into one big wish list, and that wish list went forward. The administration made a change in the way economic policy-making was going to be made too, and I think that choice was made during the transition to have a National Economic Council, and that would have been a great unknown given the Treasurys historical role in economic policy-making. Yes. Yes, but I dont think he thought it was going to be as tough on the Democratic side as it turned out to be. Yes, and Im sure that any number of opponents to the Presidents plan were sincere in their expectation that it wouldnt work. It was an astounding speech. I traveled to Japan a lot on business. It had a very different constituency than the economic plan. The feelings of people along the wayside were just very endearing. He has difficulty speaking. But its interesting to put it into perspective. That was in July or June or something. I think thats a wonderful tradition. A lot of time of the National Economic Council was spent on it. 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